The MR Matrix

OOPS!: An update
There seems to some misunderstanding here. I was proposing The MR Matrix as a discussion tool. I was not volunteering to be the keeper of it. I thought such discussions might fit in well with Welmer’s meta blog idea. [The “meta blog” now exists. It is called The Spearhead.] Indeed, I believe if people are interested in the idea it would be probably be better discussed on one of the more trafficked blogs. Ferdinand Bardamu linked to this post. His blog might also be a better discussion venue as he covers these issues far better than I do.
Updated September 10, 2009, The Spearhead link added March 16, 2010.

The growth of what might be called the men’s movement leads to the problem of classifying the various strains of thought. Some concentrate on game and pickup to the exclusion of all else. Some are concerned with changes in society and either disdain game or ignore it. Some men effectively ignore women and focus on finding their own place (perhaps without any woman). Some are concerned with society but see game as a way to help recover some balance either for society as a whole or for individual men.

Taking inspiration from the Nolan Chart I created what might be called the Men’s Rights Matrix. It aims to provide a rough way of placing yourself on others in the MR space.

The MR Matrix

The two axes are Women and Society.
Someone that scores high on Women would focus more on game either for pickup or maintaining an LTR.
Someone that scores low on Women would focus on going their own way or finding solutions apart from game.

Someone that scores high on Society would care about the short and long term trends for society.
Someone that scores low on Society would care about his own place in this world.

A pure PUA would score low on Society and high on Women.
A Galter (dropping out/MGTOW) would score low on Women and low on Society.


The below are examples. I apologize if anyone feels misplaced. They are used to guide the discussion and based on my best guess from their writings.

MR Matrix examples

Roissy scores in the middle of Society (because he does cover this) and high on Women because he focuses on pick up.

Novaseeker scores in the middle for Women because he discusses game and does see a role for it. He scores high for Society because he is more concerned with the changes to society.

Whiskey scores lower for Women because he seems more skeptical about the long term success of game. However, like Novaseeker he does focus of long term trends for Society.

I (Default) score medium for both Women and Society because I am currently focused on more personal concerns and am not concentrating on pickup. I am not hostile to game or activism.

So where do you live in the matrix?
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22 Responses to “The MR Matrix”

  1. Hope Says:

    Dude, I think it’s really saying something when you’ve got more way girls commenting on your blog than MRAs and guys. Most MRA blogs are the opposite.

    Give up on trying to appeal to the ol’ boys network. Your niche is in appealing to the womenfolks!

  2. Default User Says:


    I have to provide some cover for my poor-little-me-blog-game.

    Actually, I really do not want this to be a complete pity-party, TMI, overly introspective place. It is not good for me and not good for readers.

    That said I do appreciate the support and challenges that you and the other woman have provided.

    Do you not like my graphs? I actually had plans for more “Dating Graphs.”

  3. Default User Says:


    BTW: “Dude” does not sound like Hope speak. Did C steal your login?

  4. Hope Says:

    I learned “Dude” from a 20-something college girl named Danielle when I was 15 years old. Old IRC days.

  5. David Alexander Says:

    So where do you live in the matrix?

    I’ll let the readers here make a determination on that. I tend be a bit of a fatalist in this regard and view alphas as the sector of the male population that’s capable of successfully attracting, dating, seducing, and having sex with women. The sub-human males are generally useless and have no chance for success, while beta males can secure women for female friendships, or relationships on a quid pro quo basis. I think the market for game is really limited to certain high ranking beta males and alphas with deprecated alphaness, while it’s fundamentally useless for the average male because he’ll never be good enough to combat the alpha tendencies of men, and the desire of some women to have sex with any alpha. Mind you, I feel that society will be better off if we told men the truth about female desire and it’s fixed attraction toward alpha males. This would allow beta males to stop chasing women who don’t really love them, and allow beta males to simply concentrate on their work and hobbies and be productive and happy members of society. In turn, this would finally allow women to no longer feel the need to pursue beta males for practical reasons, and permit them to engage in whatever sexual relationship that they’d desire with an alpha without social shaming. It would promote a far more harmonious society, since the betas would no longer be in unwanted relationships, women would have access to their alphas, and alphas would have access to women without violence.

  6. Default User Says:

    @David Alexander

    You sound like a Individualist/MGTOW. Bottom-left of the chart. You are not going to “game” women and you are not really an activist.

  7. Ferdinand Bardamu Says:

    Very cool stuff, DU. If you have the time, you may want to make a Political Compass-esque quiz to determine where people fall on the grid.

    As for myself, I’d say I’m in the middle of the northeast quadrant, between Novaseeker and Roissy.

  8. Default User Says:

    @Ferdinand Bardamu

    I am afraid someone else will have to create that quiz. I am not well enough up with the issues to ask the right questions. That said I think most will be able to instinctively place themselves and (perhaps) others that they know well.

  9. ganttsquarry Says:

    Nice graph Default. I think it’s a pretty useful tool. I myself would probably fall about one centimeter south of Nova, and two and a half centimeters west of Roissy.

  10. Roosh Says:

    Well done. I’ll take the PUA spot on the graph. Society concerns me little.

  11. The Fifth Horseman Says:

    I score very high on ‘Game’ but alternate a lot along the vertical society axis, depending on how I feel.

    So a vertical bar that covers both ‘PUA’ and ‘Roissy’ and extends above that is what I would be. The only thing for sure is that I am NOT on the left half of the chart.

  12. The Fifth Horseman Says:

    I am not sure Whiskey should be that far left. He is not openly hostile to Game, the way Conor FriederDork, Larry Auster, etc. are. That whole BetaCon group should have an entire quadrant devoted to their failed asses.

  13. Talleyrand Says:


    They are off the chart somewhere in the pedestaling, ignorant about society left field.

  14. Jim Says:

    That’s interesting, and I’m not sure where I’d end up. I’ll have to think about it. It seems like it might be sort of difficult to place some people on the vertical axis. A man who goes his own way could still ultimately end up being a kind of “leader,” as in the case of Jack Kerouac, for example. I’m not making a statement about the validity that any position of “leadership by alienation” may or may not have, by way of the numbers of followers that the leader garners, but it seems like some men might be floaters on that axis. I suppose the floating position could be halfway between the two extremes, however.

  15. Default User Says:

    I intended the The MR Matrix to be a starting point for discussion. I am not even sure the axes are the best descriptions. For instance the Women axis does not distinguish between those hostile to game (e.g., Auster, Friedersdorf) and those who just do not concentrate on it. In any case your place on the map is not a full description of your views and interests. It was intended to provide a shorthand way for describing your positions. In the same way that the Nolan chart does not really describe your political views, neither does the MR Matrix.

    The positions of people on the example were only mean as illustrations and are, of course, open to debate. The idea is that people would position themselves.

    There is also the question of naming coordinates. Do you start at 0,0 or do you start in the middle of the graph and have minus numbers in the manner of a Pournelle chart ?

    I like the 0,0 start point and would quote the position like map coordinates. A PUA would quote W100,S0. An activist might be W45, S100. My position (from the examples graph) would be something like: W40,S40.

  16. Bhetti Says:

    Well, if you’re going to try a quiz, the questions here should help:

    Saw this on Mr Bardamu’s blog:

  17. Default User Says:



    I just put the matrix up as an idea. I have no interest in maintaining it or building quizzes.

    Ferdinand Bardamu’s blog is good. Indeed I see that he linked to this very thread.

    The first link you posted seems like a good start to understanding some of the MR space.

  18. Bhetti Says:

    I have no interest in maintaining it or building quizzes.

    *takes a drag from her shisha pipe.*

    If you don’t, maybe someone else will.

    *blows strawberry flavoured smoke in your direction*

    (Ok, more like a sip from my effervescing multivit impregnated water. Not shisha. Because I’m boringly healthy.)

  19. Default User Says:


    An Arab chic noir? chic cardamom?

  20. Bhetti Says:

    I’m thinkin’ Shisha Chic. Snappier. Alliterative perhaps, depending on your pronounciation.

  21. Anakin Niceguy Says:

    MGTOW is being miscategorized here. Indeed, there are some MGTOWers who are into engaging with women (even some into “Game”). MGTOW means not basing your worth, self-identity, or ultimate happiness on what women want. Some MGTOWers want nothing to do with relationships, but not all of them. I think “Going Ghost” is the term you had in mind. Try this vector Going Ghost ———–> Engaging women (LTR, “Game” etc)

  22. Default User Says:


    The chart was intended as a starting point. I figured there would be many disagreements on terminology. MGTOW was the best term I could come up with to describe that end of the spectrum.

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